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Western revisionism

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****shi Mann
223 Beiträge
Themenersteller 
Western revisionism
@****cts suggested on the Fetlife : Shibari topic On a recent article on Shibari in Shape "What to know about shibari" https://fetlife.com/groups/195/posts/18029937 that it might be preaching to the converted.

After much discussion, especially in Japan where the issue is coming to the fore, it’s a good idea to bring it to the attention of the German scene so that readers are aware of this kind of nonsense.

Although merely an example of an increasing problem getting out of control and needing to be tackled head-on, the offending article is here: https://www.shape.com/lifest … hibari-japanese-rope-bondage

My observation is that romantic martialism and SM/eroticism seemed to converge after the discovery of Zukai Hojōjutsu (sources: Saikatsu, Hige, Haru-to-Kyou, Ugo, Kami Jyubei, etc.) post-1995, and progressed c.2006.

What should concern the community, and especially unwitting beginners, is that underneath much of the marketing gloss is not a lot of actual solid contact with anything Japanese, but instead overpricing macramè for an esoteric fairytale.

Please be careful.

Best respects,
Sin
*****alS
7.909 Beiträge
I do think that, considering this is supposed to be discussed on here, it might be helpful to not require people to ahve a Fetlife account to be able to take part in the discussion. However, I do not want to fully post the original text on here without permission from the author. Would you, @****shi, maybe take the time to write a short summary with the points you consider most important while I wait for a reply on Fet if I may post the entire text on here?

(Edit: just to make that clear: I did already contact the original author on fetlife to ask about permission to post the text here, giving credit in whatever way they prefer. Please do NOT all contact them about the same thing!)
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****shi Mann
223 Beiträge
Themenersteller 
@*****alS that might be tricky as the original post was by Nuit de Tokyo, a Frenchman long-term resident of Tokyo and unlikely to be on a German forum. But in summary, and in response to the Shape article I found and he reacted to (for that thread), he wrote:

...on the Shape website titled "What to know about shibari" and I am taking the liberty of making a few remarks as there are simply too many errors, to the point where one could think that the errors are intentional…

" Shibari draws on Hojojutsu " : this is an incorrect statement, this statement has been known to be incorrect for a long time although discussions have surfaced again recently following a post by Nawashi Kanna and Kagura

"Hojojutsu, a martial art used by the Samurai … and often torture prisoners » : this is an incorrect statement, first because Hojojutsu is not related to torture in Japan, second because Samurai, belonging to a very small class of society, avoided as much as possible interacting physically with commoners.

« prisoners were intricately tied according to their crime » : this is an incorrect statement, prisoners in hojojutsu were tied according to their rank in society.

« Shibari began to spread and become more popular when it made its way to Europe and the America in the early 1900s, near WWII" : beyond the fact that situating WWII in the early 1900s is « interesting », there is to the best of my knowledge no significant popularity of shibari in Europe or the America before the mid 90s, with the first show in Amsterdam by Akechi Denki in 1997.

There is also in the article the usual « you know shibari is not about sex really… it is about aesthetics… » but discussing this one would generate a lot of ill feelings in some quarters of the anti-sex brigade…so I will pass…I guess no-sex gives you a discount on certain websites...

But to be honest, the most annoying part of the article is that it provides a list of recommended « rope artists and education sources ».

And in that list, there is not a single Japanese rope artist…

*****alS
7.909 Beiträge
@****shi I contacted him on Fetlife, in English, asking him if I am allowed to post his original text here and, if so, how he wants to be credited.

But thank you for posting it here for everyone else.

--

On topic: I am not entirely sure what kind of website "Shape" is, but to me, it looks like a lifestyle magazine. We have to keep that context in mind when discussing the (absolutely justified!) criticism posted in the text you quoted.

Yes, I would wish proper research was done as well. And not only in this case, but in many other articles about shibari as well as on other niche topics, especially within the BDSM area. But this was never the goal of the article. We, being anything from hobbyists to profesionals, but already educated on the subject, are not the audience the article is meant for. It is not meant for us to enjoy.
ANd neither is it meant to actually educate anybody on the subject. Despite the claim. The way lifestyle-blogs as well as Instagram stories work is: pick a topic people do not know a lot about, the more "exotic" the better, appear knowledgeable, have people share the article with friends and followers (who are all equally new to the subject) and profit from youir ad revenue.

This also explains the "recommendations" at the end of the article. Cameron "Hanibal" Damage for example is one of THE most infulential influencers in the are of kink and, especially, online sexwork - so if they would NOT mention them, they'd get called out for missing them. It's not important if she's actually a peer in the area of shibari and recognized as such in the scene - the important thing is that she has many fans and followers online. (Don't get me wrong, as far as I can tell she's a pretty cool person. In no way to I mean this to be directed at her in any way.)

If this article would be a factually correct but also rather complex text, quoting actual japanese expert and providing the encessary context for everyone to be able to properly understand the history of shibari, the audience of such lifestyle blog would not read the article, and even less share it. They're not interested in in-depth knowledge of the subject, they see it as a curiosity and entertaining trivia, more than actual education.

This is not a problem related to Shibari in any way. This is a problem of the internet and media. The sole reason many kink topics, shibari amongst them, are often topic of such articles is that, especially in the US, sex has only recently started to become a topic that people openly talk about. A lot of it is still rather taboo in many countries worldwide, which makes it especially useful for clickbait. Tantra was the first niche sex topic to be commercialized and "esoteroified" for the greater public. BDSM was made popular to be talked about by the release of the 50 shades of grey movies, which was perfectly timed (and not by coincidence!) and is still rising as a topic - and with it came "education" on sex toys and about experimenting with each other. Shibari and other specific niches of BDSM will be next, no doubt.

However, I DO see problems coming with this trend. As with all topics that are popular on social media, most people will not ever invest the time to gather in-depth knoweldge, but nevertheless spread the "facts" they know, until they become common knowledge. Common - but still incorrect.

However, we, as a community, can also take this as a chance: with the topic being discussed more and more in society around us, we can establish ourselves as experts - instead of trying not to be labeld as freaks by the public. Shibari educators can contact media and offer their knowledge. ANy kind of rope event, be it Dojos, conventions or local rope meetups can post their links on media whenever the subject comes up and gain new members.
However, this requires taking control of the narrative. To be out there. So - if you are a rope educator, have a following on social media or feel like rope is important to you, take this is a call to action.
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****shi Mann
223 Beiträge
Themenersteller 
I'm also not sure what kind of website Shape is either, to be honest. I was more shocked by yet more of this endless revisionism in clear pursuit of fleecing the unwitting based on conjecture. It's a global discussion point for a western problem, and very depressing, especially when one hears through forums, or directly from those who’ve suffered from self-appointed and/or narcissistic guru-syndrome ‘educators’. I suppose it's a classic case of supply rising to meet demand, and this article is just but the latest example. It doesn't stand alone.

I’ve tried my best over the years by interviewing Japanese practitioners, historians and experts to widen the pool of knowledge. The current thinking amongst several more closely connected, is to move the education back to The Japanese to highlight what only a few have began to recognise is a series of untruths in The West about them, and clearly for commercial reasons.

And... after nearly 40 years tying, I'm finally considering teaching. Obviously, more than just hypothesis and macramé. Maybe I have enough experience under my belt. But I'm nervous and cautious, and will have to wait on the crisis conditions to permit it.

S
*****alS
7.909 Beiträge
No offense meant but - I do get the impression you're not around much on social media (Instagram and the like). Neither am I, it's not the kind of etnertainment I look for and even I am born 5 to 10 years too early to have been fully hit by the influencer-flash. But being in IT and having a siblings and friends in an age group closer to "millenial", I do know that articles such as the one mentioned here are common. On literally all subjects, but the more "exotic" it seems to be to the average internet user (if there is such a thing), the more welcome a topic is.

It is not people trying to teach. It's all driven by ad revenue and page-rank. It's an entire industry focused on trying to become a go-to website for all kinds of subjects. They don't want to become a shibari resource - in fact, they would hate to become one, as the moment that happens, they can't randomly introduce new subjects as easily anymore.
*****alS
7.909 Beiträge
(Reading my own texts again, I would like to correct me accidentally misgendering Cameron 'Hannibal' Damage twice in my first post. The correct article is "they/them", as I used in the first sentence I mentioned them. I'm sorry for labeling them as female in the sentences afterwards - I cannot, sadly, edit my text anymore)
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****shi Mann
223 Beiträge
Themenersteller 
No offence taken. Yes, you spotted it. I'm getting old.

I admit, I detest Social Media and avoid it as much as possible. I see the superficiality, the mediocrity, the postulation, the delusion.

Rope bondage, or whatever term one wishes to describe it, for me, is infinitely deeper. Life is bigger, and eventually some of the more perceptive will come to realise that ‘friends’ and ‘likes’ and ‘clicks’ are meaningless digital trinkets.
*****alS
7.909 Beiträge
We absolutely agree in that rope bondage is more than just a novelty. And a topic we consider worth diving into. But I assume all nerds would state the same about their topic. Yet, the trend, especially in social media, is to treat all things as novelties, bringing them up to people who've never heard about it. And giving those who DID hear about them before a chance to shine. Sometimes I get the impression that mistakes are made on purpose - just so somebody can feel cool by corecting them. And they always do it. In masses. Even if they never had spotted the mistake if it wasn't for comments made before their own that point it out.

It's why I, like you, stay away from it all. I never posted a "story" anywhere, I quit facebook years ago, and besides JoyClub and a Twitter I use for my sexwork related communication I stay clear of all other social media. I don't send memes to friends on whatsapp either.
But, even though I'm only 32, I'm a species on the edge of extinction.

However I do not think social media is a threat to culture. Not shibari culture either. People actually interested in it WILL pursue knowledge and join the nerd faction. ANd the rest will forget about the subject as quickly as they learned about it. Just give it time to be replaced by another "big thing"
****63 Frau
197 Beiträge
And for those who'd like to be informed more thoroughly - and as far as I see more correct - on the history of Kinbaku/Shibari, there is a great book which I can totally recommend to read:
*******Mind Frau
485 Beiträge
Deutsche Version des ursprünglichen Beitrags
Die deutsche Übersetzung des Original-Beitrags von Nuit de Tokyo für alle die mit der englischen Sprache nicht so vertraut sind:

Einige Personen haben mich auf den Artikel: “What to know about shibari” (https://www.shape.com/lifest … hibari-japanese-rope-bondage) von Alex Shea auf der Shape-Webseite aufmerksam gemacht und ich nehme mir die Freiheit einige Anmerkungen zu machen, da ich hier so viele Ungereimtheiten sehe, dass man fast davon ausgehen könnte sie wären absichtlich…

“Shibari entspringt dem Hojojutsu”: Dies ist eine falsche Annahme, was schon seit langem bekannt ist. Trotzdem sind derartige Diskussionen vor kurzem wieder aufgekommen, was u.a. auch in einem Beitrag von Nawashi Kanna und Kagura (http://kanna-kagura.blogspot … ersification-of-kinbaku.html) kritisiert wurde.

„Hojojutsu ist eine Kampfkunst der Samurai… die oft dafür genutzt wurde Gefangene zu foltern“: Diese Aussage ist fehlerhaft, da erstens Hojojutsu in Japan nicht mit Folter zusammenhängt und zweitens die Samurai einer kleinen sozialen Gruppe angehörten, welche es so gut wie möglich vermied mit gemeinen Bürgern zu interagieren.

„Gefangene wurden aufwändig gefesselt und die Fesselung hinsichtlich des Verbrechens welches sie begangen haben ausgewählt”: Diese Aussage ist falsch, da Gefangene hinsichtlich ihres Ranges gefesselt wurden.

“Shibari wurde weiter verbreitet und zunehmend beliebter als es in den frühen 1900er-Jahren, nahe des 2. Weltkriegs, nach Europa und Amerika gelangte“: Neben der Tatsache dass der 2. Weltkrieg zu Beginn der 1900er-Jahre verortet wird, ist bemerkenswert dass es nach meinem Wissen keine signifikante Bekanntheit von Shibari in Europa oder Amerika vor Mitte der 90er-Jahre gab (mit der ersten Show Akechi Denkis in Amsterdam, 1997).

In dem Artikel wird außerdem das übliche “bei Shibari geht es eigentlich nicht wirklich um Sex … sondern um Ästhetik”-Thema aufgegriffen, aber das zu diskutieren würde vermutlich einige ungute Gefühle bei einigen Anhängern der Anti-Sex-Brigade hervorrufen… deshalb überspringe ich dies… bei einigen Webseiten bekommt man dafür vermutlich einen Bonus…

Doch um ehrlich zu sein, das was ich am meisten stört ist, dass eine Liste empfehlenswerter Bondage-Künstler und Lern-Ressourcen zur Verfügung gestellt wird – und auf dieser Liste kein einziger japanischer Bondage-Künstler genannt wird.

Währendessen möchte ich, sofern es mir erlaubt wird, die Leser auf einige, meiner Meinung nach empfehlenswerte, noch lebende japansiche Bondage-Künstler aufmerksam machen, (geordnet nach Geburtsdatum):

Arisue Go
Naka Akira
Kazami Ranki
Nawashi Kanna
Himuro Eve
Hajime Kinoko
Hourai Kasumi
Yagami Ren

(Ergänzung durch @****shi in den Kommentaren):
Aotsuki Nagare
Kamui Jyubei
Yoshida Yoi
Shigonawa Bingo
Doyama Tesshin
Haru-to-Kyou
Ryusaki Asuka
Shishiwaka
Kamijoo Saki
SHIMA Malphas

Und ich werde anmerken, dass alle von ihnen ohne Ausnahme und einige weitere berühmte wie Osada Eikichi, Akechi Denki, Nureki Chimuo, Yukimura Haruki, die inzwischen verschieden sind, für die Pornoindustrie gearbeitet haben.

Was mich daran erinnert (während ich von Osada Eikichi spreche) dass die eine Person welche seinen Namen als Osada Steve fortträgt und außerdem von Akechi Denki und Yukimura Haruki gelernt hat, seit den frühen 90ern in Japan lebt und hier auf fetlife zu finden ist.

Eventuell könnte es sein, dass es bei Shibari doch um Sex geht. Man weiß es nicht genau…

Cheers,
NdT

*******Mind Frau
485 Beiträge
Zitat von *****alS:


This also explains the "recommendations" at the end of the article. Cameron "Hanibal" Damage for example is one of THE most infulential influencers in the are of kink and, especially, online sexwork - so if they would NOT mention them, they'd get called out for missing them. It's not important if she's actually a peer in the area of shibari and recognized as such in the scene - the important thing is that she has many fans and followers online. (Don't get me wrong, as far as I can tell she's a pretty cool person. In no way to I mean this to be directed at her in any way.)

If this article would be a factually correct but also rather complex text, quoting actual japanese expert and providing the encessary context for everyone to be able to properly understand the history of shibari, the audience of such lifestyle blog would not read the article, and even less share it. They're not interested in in-depth knowledge of the subject, they see it as a curiosity and entertaining trivia, more than actual education.

This is not a problem related to Shibari in any way. This is a problem of the internet and media. The sole reason many kink topics, shibari amongst them, are often topic of such articles is that, especially in the US, sex has only recently started to become a topic that people openly talk about. A lot of it is still rather taboo in many countries worldwide, which makes it especially useful for clickbait. Tantra was the first niche sex topic to be commercialized and "esoteroified" for the greater public. BDSM was made popular to be talked about by the release of the 50 shades of grey movies, which was perfectly timed (and not by coincidence!) and is still rising as a topic - and with it came "education" on sex toys and about experimenting with each other. Shibari and other specific niches of BDSM will be next, no doubt.

The choice of the protagonists / recommendations are a specific group of people from the scene that are (as far as I know) somehow related to each other according to approach, philosophy etc., which I wouldn't mind if this hadn't end up in "re-writing" the origin of shibari (and history in general, considering that WW2 is suddenly located at the beginning of the 20th century). Especially when I consider that some of these people recently spoke up against orientalism and cultural appropriation in the rope scene (and actually the Shibari-evolves-from-Hojojutsu approach was critizised in this regard as well... but obviously some peoples' opinion is quite flexible when it comes to marketing interests).

I'm someone that tries to be informed about things going on in social media (though I'm not motivated to do that everyday), but looking at things that happened in some social circles of the scene during the last weeks, leaves me just wondering, scratching my head. I feel like there is a lot of blind (re-)actionism happening and people just share stuff and posts without actually thinking about the content.

Regarding the issues with sex and American prudery I agree with what you say. But in this regard I find it even more annoying that it happens in the rope scene as well. I don't mind that people practice bondage for aesthetic or other non-sexual reasons. Everyone should go for what suits to them. But I find it very concerning that even in the bondage scene sexual reasons are still seen as a lower motive. I rarely hear people emphasizing that they don't practice shibari for aesthetical or artistic reasons, while at the same time people don't get tired of telling others that "it's not always about sex".

Oh and "Shape" is obviously supposed to be a lifestyle and fitness magazine (as my research on Instagram suggests).
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****shi Mann
223 Beiträge
Themenersteller 
@****63, I have a signed copy from my meeting with Master K in LA many years ago. You have to appreciate that as time flows on, better information comes to light, and that his opinions written then regarding the lineage of SM, eroticism and martial arts might be edited for better understanding today, because they portray a certain ambiguity that might lead readers to make spurious connections.

S
*****alS
7.909 Beiträge
@*******Mind I get that specific groups have different views on how they would like shibari to evolve and tryint to steer it towards that direction - which is, I'd say, quite common in all areas. It's how activism works. ANd the way to counter it, if you feel like you would steer the public narrative in anothere direction, is to form equally connected groups and publish yourself. This is how social media works.

WHat I can't quite grasp is your train of though that ends in stating people havee "flexible opinions". Maybe I lack the in-depth knowledge about the people involved and their publications. But as far as I understand, the "shibari-evolves-from-hojojutus" claim in the article on Shape was put there by the author of said article and by neither of the people recommended for more information (that were also recommended by the author on SHape, not by themselves!).
I would understand your criticizm if the people recommended in the article would also be the authors of the article itself (or connected to them). However, I do not see any information that this might be true.

In general though, I feel like this debate is superflouos. It comes down to "reactionist vs traditionalist" approach. It's the same old tihng that's present everywhere - politics ("libertarian vs conservative"), religion (reformatists vs hardliners), and so on. And I always fail to see the point why it's a problem to ahve more than one viewe on a subject.
To me, this sounds like "but the others are propagating a view on the topic that isn't mine". And tbh: that's not their problem. Everyone is free to publish anything on social media.

Yes, I would love social media to actually debate tihngs, instead of just blindly sharing them. I totally agree that it hurts any topic to just share somebody else's view on it instead of researching and developing own perspectives. And this will be a challenge to teach the upcoming generations - which means it's a challenge we have to take in case we get kids. Social media and internet culture clearly evolved faster than our ways of teaching humans the skills necessary to interpret the information published. This is a problem - but not one related to shibari.

As I said earlier though - everyone who feels like such publications do threaten the legacy of their approach to shibari has exactly one way (I do think there is no alternative) to counter it: using the same tools. People can only control the narrative if nobody oposes them.
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